Time to finish off I think. Today I simply want to deep dive into the supposed evidence and leave the whole topic there. If you haven’t done so yet go listen to Tom Grant’s taped evidence at http://www.cobaincase.com and note that he’s only released tapes that support the more innocuous of the claims he makes in this book — most of those featuring Rosemary Carroll are Grant talking with Rosemary just agreeing that she’s doubtful and still shocked by it all. Barely any of the tapes are more than a matter of seconds, the topics are barely focused and the only interesting one is the minute and a half exchange over the existence of a letter in a bed. Enjoy!
The issue of the use of Kurt Cobain’s credit card after his death is often cited as an ‘ah-ha’ moment for the murder case but there’s no evidence whatsoever that the card was taken from the crime scene. Two reasonable arguments, firstly, technical error, secondly, theft or loss in the days prior to death, are available. A third option is supplied within Love & Death which is that, as the authors state they suspected, a member of what they call “Cobain’s entourage” could use the card number without the card being present — essentially there are three good alternatives rather than the killer being dopey enough to use their victim’s card. Frankly, having executed this murder cunningly concealing it as a suicide, it seems unlikely the killer would take the risk of stealing the credit card given even the merest idiot knows that would create an electronic record. Of course, if the (non)killer was Courtney’s agent she may have mentioned having cancelled the credit cards but that’s supposition so strike it from the record. Far more importantly, in the conspiratorial version of events this greedy killer took the credit card but left $120 sitting on the floor plus a further $63 in Cobain’s pocket — $183 dollars in untraceable hard cash that could never have been connected back to Cobain was abandoned but an easily noticeable credit card, that if used would create an electronic record, was taken.
The authors also dwell on the absence of fingerprints yet, again, there’s a sleight of hand taking place; they state clearly on page 222 “when the police dusted for fingerprints, they actually found four latent prints.” What they are really referring to is the absence of other prints. They disingenuously question why there are no prints from Dylan Carlson or the salesman from March 30 nine days before— I can understand a buyer giving the object a casual wipe on the way home and nine day old prints not being guaranteed. Kurt Cobain’s body lay for around three days in an unheated space with the moisture levels and so forth affected by the joyously wet world of the Pacific North-West. There’s no reason to believe that residual oil from fingertips would be unaffected. The book also describes that different conditions make it more or less likely for fingerprints to be left anyway. Again, it’s a non-evidential point.
The authors at least accept that the gun was wedged tight in Cobain’s hands. But they move into la-la-land again with a bitty and fragmented discussion of where the gun blast would leave the shotgun lying after firing. It’s quite remarkable, someone is genuinely trying to scientifically demonstrate the likely place a gun would fall without definite proof of body position when fired, of force of shot, of position of mouth on gun, of tightness of grip, of gun-butt position — they’ve no valid evidence at all with which to either cast doubt or make claims. It’s pure fantasy.
Next there’s the matter of the claim that Kurt Cobain’s note was in fact a statement that he was quitting Nirvana/music; they make it repeatedly yet this is palpable nonsense. The note rambles widely over comments around the personality of his daughter, of his wife, it doesn’t mention Nirvana by name, it dwells on personal feelings of fear, hatred, disappointment, sadness — one could read, at most, two paragraphs of it as part of a resignation statement but no more. The claim also rests on the bizarre idea that Cobain left the statement lying around so his killer (presumably while escorting Kurt and a shotgun from the house) scooped it up “ah, helpful! A note that just happens to read like a suicide note!” Perhaps the killer stood over Kurt like a school teacher and made him write it? It’s a poor claim and a deeply selective note reading.
The authors move on and claim that Tom Grant has evidence, that he never shows them, that Courtney was practising handwriting. The book deftly evades ever comparing the supposed sample to the Cobain note; that would have helped but it seems that either the samples didn’t match, or there’s no proof they even existed. It also relies on a fascinating set-up in which Courtney Love mailed or hand-delivered the chosen killer after Kurt’s unplanned leave from rehab to supply a note — it’s the only way this piece about handwriting is relevant, she’d have had to write and mail the note on the off-chance Cobain turned up in a killable scenario. Again, there’s only one man’s word for any of it but it posits that Courtney was already planning to somehow lure Cobain into a situation in which a suicide scenario could be set-up and arranged which seems bizarre given she doesn’t know where he is. Meanwhile, as I describe in Dark Slivers: Seeing Nirvana in the Shards of Incesticide, the note is entirely in line with Cobain’s use of images found elsewhere in his writing, its loaded with personal references and descriptions that match with his other writings and the tone, right down to the self-depreciation, fits his known work; there’s nothing at all to show the note isn’t the work of Kurt D. Cobain.
Failing to make a case for the note being a forgery the authors have such threadbare material they instead shoehorn in the claim that the final four lines were written by someone else. I can’t tell if they’re saying Courtney practiced two versions of Cobain’s handwriting just for the occasion, or that she somehow got to the scene to write them in before the Police got there, or that the cunning killer wrote them to leave a handwriting sample to be picked up at the scene — either way, Courtney couldn’t write the last four lines without having written the rest of the note (if delivered to the killer) which makes a nonsense of the ‘two forms of handwriting’ claim. Unless they’re arguing Courtney didn’t write it at all and that the killer appended the last four lines in which case their argument about her practising handwriting is shown to be irrelevant. Certainly the authors show Ms Love to be quite a woman, I mean, WOW, she’s permanently on the phone, she’s in prison, in hospital, on drugs, preparing to release an album, running round in a limousine arranging contract killings, mailing off notes, practising her handwriting, oh, and being a mother on top of it. It’s a jumble of nonsense.
Again, the topic shifts — that’s the crucial modus operandi of these books, given the absence of any deep or meaningful evidence for anything that is stated the authors simply have to tag together a wide enough variety of material to hide the gaping holes. The discussion moves to Rome in March; again, there’s claim and counter-claim that there was/wasn’t a note wedged in with doubt whether it was/wasn’t a suicide note — again, no proof. Over and over again what really bothers me is that entire arguments are made on the basis of nothing more than the statements of Tom Grant. He claims Courtney was attempting to mislead him, or told him things he found untrue yet, over and again, the only word available is that of Tom Grant.
The matter of the unlocked balcony door is brought up — the possibility that someone clambered over the balcony and dropped the nine-ten foot to the ground below having killed Cobain. They claim that the Police are being deceptive and that the door was not, in fact, barricaded therefore anyone could have been in the room. Again, it’s a disingenuous statement; there’s still a door with a chair with a pile of gardening supplies on it positioned closely enough to the door as to make it hard for anyone to slip out and to end up being reported as ‘wedged.’ More importantly, to me anyway, it’s simply unnecessary for the killer to have to leap spectacularly over a balcony railing and risk injury. The victim is dead, the scene is posed, the killer can simply stroll out the door the same way they and their victim walked in. If they fear observation or detection then a stunning dive off a balcony and crash-down is definitely not the way to go. Instead, let’s just say that Cobain had no reason to lock doors that didn’t lead to an exit — he wanted privacy so he locked the only true entrance. Superman wasn’t going to fly in.
The rest of the book’s 270 odd pages is basically made up of hearsay, discussion of unrelated matters, quotations of dubious relevance (no, sorry, the fact Leland Cobain things Kurt was murdered isn’t evidence — sorry.) Adding it all together, is it possible to say something odd was going on? I mean, think of it; massive heroin dose, unlocked door, no fingerprints, missing credit card, apparently unclear behaviour from wife and others, unopened drinks can at the scene, Allen Wrench — surely this is all weight for the murder claim?
Again, take it apart again; no proof that the heroin dose was so massive or of Cobain’s tolerance level, unlocked door still partially blocked and not leading to an exit, there were fingerprints, better arguments around the credit card, no proof bar Tom Grant’s word for most of what he claims about wife and others, no proven relevance of the drinks can, no proof whatsoever (and a public denial) from Mr Wrench. Having a load of unexplored avenues doesn’t mean there’s a case to be made. The weight of evidence is still far more on the side of suicide; very much so. Missing so hard to locate, killed by own gun found in own hand, only true entrance/exit locked, note in own handwriting, major drug addiction, estrangement from all except drug connections, marital breakdown, professional breakdown, apparent depressive tendencies and no antipathy to the idea of suicide.
I’ve now read the two books, the PDF link given the other day, the two main websites, chunks of the Harrison book and the end result is I see a batch of people making money and/or publicity off the idea that Kurt Cobain was murdered. I see no reason to accept that Tom Grant has been unfairly treated, or that the Seattle Police were negligent, or that any of the claims made for the murder theory stand up to any examination at all. But what the hey, it’s all kinda fun isn’t it? Maybe that’s all this is now, a twenty year old death only lives on as infotainment.
Note that this post is one of four linked articles on the topic:
145 thoughts on “Murdering Kurt Cobain: Finishing it all Off”
1.52 milligrams per liter.
Three times a lethal dose.
That’s enough evidence to prove that Kurt was murdered. Dead men do not pull triggers.
Look at the last lines of the letter, then look at the examples in “Love and Death” of Courtney trying to copy Kurt’s handwriting.
Kurt wanted a divorce, he wanted out of that relationship, he wanted out of Nirvana, but NOT out of this planet! Tom Grant’s Case Study Manual. Read it.
I think its a riot that you poke fun at people making money off Kurt’s murder, because YOU have been making money off the Nirvana name since your book came out.
You are no better than Courtney.
Heh! I did wonder if commenting might start a storm – and, most importantly, you’re welcome to your opinion naturally.
As stated, if there was proof that the dosage was 1.52 milligrams in the first place, cool – but the authors contradict themselves and there’s no official declaration on that. Similarly, there’s no proof that the dosage would have been lethal in the time argued by the authors – again, they substitute opinion for fact.
On the ‘copying Kurt’s handwriting’ point – please take a look back at the book and note that the authors very clearly do not state openly that Kurt’s handwriting was copied. Also, note that if Courtney faked those four lines it relies on the note having been flown to the crime scene in advance of the killing or the killer present in Seattle writing them in before the police take possession of the note – again, please look back at the articles last week, this is covered.
Beyond that, if your belief is that the only books allowed should be autobiographies or autobiographies then you’re welcome to that thought. I believe I wrote a truthful and honest book of my beliefs and I have no issue with Mr. Halperin, Mr. Wallace and Mr. Grant doing the same – except the former two state clearly that they’re doing it because they think Kurt Cobain caused suicides – do you think Kurt is responsible for kids killing themselves?
Anyways, fella! You’re welcome anytime – say hi to me personally and I’ll talk as long as you wish. NirvanaDarkSlivers@gmail.com and firstname.lastname@example.org
Well, it turns out Det. Ciesynski who was in charge of the Cobain case back in 94 finally admits 20 years latert that the level of heroin on Kurt’s blood was fatal.
Watch for yourself – it’s toward the end
To expand on my first post – since the detective admits Kurt had a huge lethal dose in his system, let’s break down the numbers using the 1.52mg per liter as reported by Tom Grant.
The lethal dose of heroin for a person so high tolerance is about 75-80mg (not 75 to 80 mg per liter of blood, but in a shot). If a highly addicted/tolerant person shoots around 80mgs, the blood level is about 0.5mg per liter. If Kurt’s level was 1.52mg/L, that would mean he shot around 240mgs (!!??). So according to the detective,Kurt put in that much heroin and then had MINUTES (as he says in the video) to cap the needles put them away, take the gun, lay down, aim the gun, get his one hand on the barrel other hand on the trigger (I think the gun was inverted as well). Th onset of heroin shot straight IV is seconds even if you are highly tolerant and especially if you are shooting 3X the dose! I mean, was Kurt literally a superhuman when it comes to heroin tolerance if the story is as the detective says it is?
As someone in the video pointed out in the comments, Phillip Seymore Hoffman was found dead with the needle still in his arm! I don’t remember any news reports of specific levels in his blood, but I imagine even if it was 2X as much as a lethal dose it would be headlines! I also think Kurt was pretty much anorexic and probably way undernourished with the way his life was spiraling out of control; but I guess somehow he managed to tolerate around 240mgs of heroin put into his veins and be lucid long enough to tidy up the place and pick up a gun.
Just remember, it’s now official that Kurt had a huge lethal dose of heroin in his blood; yet somehow the cop wants us to think he was with it long enough to do everything else.
Also to jon 70mg is nowhere near a lethal dose for someone with a high opiate tolerance- 200mg is considered the minimum lethal dose with addicts being able to use signifigantly more depending on tollerance. A bit less might kill someone and a bit more might be easily tolerated it depnds on how habituated the individual is to opiates. http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/heroin Heres a source supporting my 200mg claims (also note right after they mention the “lethal” dose they acknowledge addicts may consume 10x this ammount and be fine) wheres your claiming 70mg is lethal for an addict with a high tolerance (LOL)? You must at least concede here that there is no definite lethal or incapacitating dose for an addict it varies signifigantly between users and his dose is nowhere near superhuman. Also in regard to capping the needle even if he was high as a kite, heroin is largely about ritual, many addicts are addicted to the needle itself. Its probably simply part of his routine after shooting and waiting for the drugs to hit to cap the needle (still in his hand) and chcuk it in the box. This act takes one second, ive seen addicts put their needles in already full biohazard containers to have them fall on the floor, not because they’re so out of it they didnt realize it was full just because its an automatic gesture something they immediately do after removing a tourniquet.
This is a respone to Jon’s comment about Philip Seymour Hoffman:
“Phillip Seymore Hoffman was found dead with the needle still in his arm!”. PSH didn’t die of a heroin overdose.
From a newspaper report – ” Hoffman died from a mix of heroin, cocaine, amphetamines and benzodiazepines, which are psychoactive drugs such as Librium”.- mixing drugs with heroin is lethal.
Peaches Geldof died after injecting more than Kurt had in his system and she didn’t have a needle in her arm when she died and she was also smaller than Kurt.
The OP and Tad are correct.
No, no, no. You’re sharp, just a hair less sharp than you think. You mention above that the idea of a particular dose leading to immediate incapacitation is “opinion,” by stating: “they substitute opinion for fact.”
The reason I’m not going to let that fly is because you’re, essentially, asking for something impossible. You are placing an unreasonable burden of proof. Researchers are never going to study “time to incapacitation after a lethal heroin dose,” so any “evidence” that you speak of would be extrapolated and assumed anyway.
You asking for experimental evidence in this particular instance is essentially a non-evidential argument, despite the fact that you argue against those repeatedly. It’s like the religion argument. One side says it has to be proven and if it isn’t, it must be false. Well that’s not how logic works. Just because you can’t prove something doesn’t make it false, and being unable to disprove something doesn’t make it true.
Stop acting like we need experimental evidence. The heroin estimation is loosely scientific and sufficient in terms of what anyone else would need. Stop trying to be the “smart guy” by incorrectly inserting logic where it isn’t needed.
You clearly have no understanding of opiates or tolerance. There is a well documented case of a woman survivng an 800mg dose of methadone having no prior experience with opiates do you know how much heroin that would be equivalent to? Signifgantly higher than ur 3x lethal dose statement. A junkie with unlimited resources and a long enough timeline could function on doses so high above the “lethal” dose there may not even be a ceiling for opiate. tolerance. The dr.’s who claimed they were unsure if cobain could function at that level were saying so because they did not know kurts opiate tolerance, there was insufficient data from a medical standpoint to make that claim, however there are a signifgant number of people who have consumed that amount or more and functioned fine. This is hardly a lethal dose for an experienced and wealthy junkie, nor is it necessarily an incapacitating one. The only thing we really know about how much heorin kurt used, is that he frequently lied about and downplayed the extant of his usage, it seems totally reasonable to me that he could function with this in his system, and what junkie wouldnt want one last glorious shot!
Also for the record I work at a harm reduction centre, and many of the patients I see inject fentanyl patches- you have no idea what you’re talking about with opiate tolerance until you watch someone inject enough fentanyl to kill an elephant then ask for some bus tickets.
Oh one last thing, 25-30mg of methadone is generally considered lethal to someone with no opiate tolerance, know how much the doses go up to at the methadone clinic? 120mg… Geeze thats 4x times the lethal dose! Experienced junkies drink this everyday for breakfast and walk away.
Thank you! Nice to hear someone point out that chemicals are an imprecise scenario.
hi, methadone patient here. i know this is an old thread. i just wanted to point out that i survived pretty close to 800mgs of methadone and atleast 35-40, probably more, 4mg xanax pills last week (there was 100 there and like 20 left in the end, shared between me and my spouse. i was in rough shape, but i could withstand that much methadone standing on my head. i’m 5’0, small, female, and def not a rockstar. i certainly don’t have the money to funnel a rockstar habit.
oh and motley crüe, that lame band from the 80s, one of their band mates died for 2 minutes and came back, and also claimed to do 1000$ of heroin and cocaine a day. consider how inflation typically rises, so you would end up with more product.
if 240mg killed a person who had endless access, we’d all be dead.
If he was already dead from heroin, why would they use a gun? The job was already done.
I’m in tricky territory.
I don’t want to tell anyone “don’t believe the hype” when it comes to the conspiracy theories – but I don’t think this would have been a comprehensive site, and I don’t think I would have been showing courage, unless I made my position clear.
If genuine evidence emerged then I’m open to it… But the heroin dosage, the unlocked door, the handwriting, the hitmen, the nanny, the credit card… So far none of it holds up for me…
As you say, yes, divorce was the only answer but I believe Cobain was fundamentally opposed to and horrified by the idea – he said so in the note.
On the Nirvana point, again, yep – Nirvana was dead and gone.
Hey sometimes it seems like you know a whole lot and sometimes it seems like you are a bit misinformed . Now I think he killed himself (most of the time) Anyways, The car supposedly having four flat tires is a big reason why I think so, was it flat? Then he was stranded there with Cali. To be anal the pop can had 3/4th left or drunk we , the idea is that it was all planned the letter too and that Michael did it, he did leave a note for show on the stairs saying I know u were in here but didnt call courtney asshole!. Who writes that to their boss? . Also on almost every question Courtney talks smack about him, (This upsets me greatly) Before death all sweet words after most of it is bullshit. (If he came back to life I would kill him, asshole, Kurt was a pig , Billy corgans people carried my backpack kurt had to be so punk wahwahwah. I think sometimes that they tried to kill him in Rome everyone is a easy target on benzos … he made it , and they were afraid he was gonna start remembering shit like you usualy do a few days /weeks /months after a benzo ride memories start coming back. They were in panic and wanted him dead. Now as a opiate (user/a) I know that about 5 hours after youre last fix you start getting weak, soon you cant stand up and then you are truley weak. I think she wanted him this way (weak). And when he left rehab and came back to the house , bingo. Also remember that he talked to Cali when he first came back, yet courtney wants tom grant to guard some heroin dealers house how can that make any sense?. Also Rosemary says that she heard courtney say flat out be sure to check the green house<– now that one is incredible.
Agree that I can understand Courtney’s aggression toward him upsetting people – but then, the relationship was in trouble, her husband had scarpered, she’s on drugs…And she’s right, he is a bit of an ass at times. It doesn’t lead me to conclude murder, just makes me not like her much.
My objection to the “she fed him drugs to keep him weak” perspective is that it shows an innate lack of respect for Kurt Cobain, a man who remained committed to a drug life throughout most of his adult life, restricted only by financial resources. The reduction of Kurt to a child who was couldn’t make his own decisions seems to fly in the face of his stubborness and strength.
The drink can is just another unprovable nothing at this point – there’s no data, no evidence of anything beyond Cobain probably drinking a soda. Similarly, the Cali note point? Are you suggesting that Cali, when faking a note, decided to change the way he spoke just for the occasion? Again, it’s another point where the conspiracy view of it is far more complicated than necessary and relies on the ‘actors’ deliberately doing things that can only serve to increase suspicion…And they all rely on the word of Mr. Grant defining them as suspicious.
All I can say is that I see no unequivocal, undisputable evidence of murder. And even more so, its been twenty years and Mr. Grant still has not submitted his ‘evidence’ to a proper authority, still has no additional evidence, still has no definitive proof…I’m sure the FBI would be more than happy to review if they received actual evidence.
How can you not grasp, that we are in a financially driven money system? Kurt was worth more dead than alive, it good business, though morally abhorrent. Since when did morals dictate business?
There is strong proof kurt wanted out of the music business(pulling out of of concerts already causing millions dollars of losses) ,his mental state a financial liability of one of the biggest cultural money making movements in recent history.
Untill the following few inconsistencies are explained, there will always be suspicions over this case;,
1.How many recorded instances are there, where someone overdoses on heroin(on a high) and then shoots themselves in the head?
2. Why did the seatle police state the credit card details (of cash withdrawal attempts at the time of kurt being dead) were carried out, earlier than the stated dates; a delayed response on the times? The banks have been questioned and stated the time and date would take minutes, hours at most after withdrawal attempts, proving, someone was trying to use kurts card. Who had kurts credit card while he lay dead?
3. Who deflated the 4 tires on Kurts car?
4. Why did dylan (kurts best friend) omit to go into the green house room where Kurt lay at the time of them searching for kurt. The only room they left out in the search?
5. who arranged for the electrician to arrive on the said date?
6. Suicide verdict by the police, on the same day as kurt was found, a highly irregular and incompetent response?
7. No fingerprints whatsoever on the gun, the police state prints were wiped as a result from firing – are we to believe ALL previous prints were wiped as a result from firing?
8. The suicide note. Several handwriting experts have stated, that the last 4/5 lines on the note were not written by kurt cobain, with at least 12 anomalies proving Kurt did not write this part of the note. A practice note (With upper and lower case letters similar to Kurts handwriting) was also found in the bag of Courtney Love by her lawyer, nothing has been said explaining this.
1. Tell me? How many…? Oh! And tell me how many cases of a rock star’s wife having him assassinated? Your point is irrelevant to proving anything.
2. So, are you saying the bank is lying or the police are lying and – in either case – how many co-conspirators are you suggesting rather than accepting electronic errors happen and/or there are many ways a card of Cobain’s could be physically elsewhere or lost…?
4. Why did the skilled and talented private investigator fail to even look at the property he was off to investigate and fail to investigate a prominent garage building except through negligence? And when does the burden of proof fall on the ‘not at his best’ heroin addict dragged out at night to look round a house in the dark?
5. Coincidence isn’t causation.
6. Guy with gun clamped so hard in hand it takes work to remove it in room with main exit locked and other exit blocked and a massive press cohort demanding answers.
7. Three days in North West spring conditions – many conditions result in no prints. And there was a palm print.
8. Many more experts have shown it is his handwriting…And you’re suggesting it was posted down just on the off chance the guy on the run showed up? And why a note at all in that case – cleaner without…
I am rep;ying to the 8 points below.As there is no reply facility on your babble 🙂
Your reasoning is inane, and you fail to answer the questions on his death. Answer them.
I will answer your questions, you use nothing more than a diversion tactic that avoids answering or explaining the anomalies with this case
What is the ratio of suicide or frequency of murder by a rock stars wife compared to heroin overdose By addicts. inane comparison and reasoning. This somehow demonstrates it was suicide. STICK OR REFUTE THE FACTUAL QUESTIONS. Again answer the question
1.How many recorded instances are there, where someone overdoses on heroin(on a high) t 1.52 mgs level and then shoots themselves in the head? Look at the data. Based on the data What we are to believe as happened(shooting up at that level and shooting in the head) is very unlikely to of happened based on the data.
2. No the police are lying. What the banks are saying can be demonstrated as provable FACT. That the times of money withdrawal, would take hours if not minutes to show on the records.
This is simply a fact. Can it be shown in any capacity as the standard norm, it takes days later as the police state? Show the proof?
3. Again who deflated the 4 tires on kurts car and why? Please see the police statement
One tire deflated sure 3 tires maybe, 4 tires deflated….as you say whuuut?
4. Dylan was asked after why they never went to the green house, its just a place they store lumber, these coincidences are just that, no matter how they keep on stacking up. You point fingers and admit a private investigator made a mistake; an oversight, yet you perceive the spd as infallible lol. Can you not see the irony?
5. True, but again who arranged for the electrician on the 6th.
6. For a proper and professional investigation the wording and perception must remain impartial and objective until all data and facts are gathered -not before!. This was simply not the case at the time; within one day! Considering the notoriety of the victim, foul play (or any scenario) must be a consideration, to serve as a basis for an objective impartial and thorough investigation. Its very clear, if you know any thing of police investigations, this was not the case. The spd have been inept and clearly incompetent on several levels here, in this investigation.
7.Again what is the frequency of this happening – no prints. Another coincidence that means nada right? And when was the gun dusted for prints by the spd, straight away?
8. You say potatoes, why did Courtney, have the note with practice letters letters you have not answered this, this is not explained.
Look its very simple. With the lack of blood from the gunshot wound many have said this proves there is a conspiracy; it was not suicide. As you know this is explainable scientifically. The guage was one where the wound would be very small, large enough for death, but not such an impact, for considerable blood splatter. The other anomalies with this case are not explained satisfactory, considering the volume of inconsistencies, raises serious questions.
With the Ian curtis suicide it was very clearly just that Suicide, the cobain case has too many anomalies, to be a conclusive verdict.
This is the things really, you clearly care very deeply about the topic, you’re committed to it and I respect your commitment. Yet nothing here is ‘scientific’, or ‘proof’, or valid evidence of a murder case. Raising counter-factuals is a useful exercise but my feeling is the balance of probability, circumstance and proof still tilts toward Kurt Cobain doing what Kurt Cobain wished to do. Luckily that means we have much more time to get to know one another! 🙂
The difficulty is that you’re raising ‘non facts’ then demanding facts. For example, substitute “how many recorded instances are there where a man shoots themselves in a greenhouse? It’s very unlikely to happen based on the data.” Precisely as you say though, however unlikely, in this case there is a man who was alive at the time of the shotgun blast and therefore did have a very high level of heroin in his blood when hit with an apparently self-inflicted shotgun blast. The likelihood or unlikelihood of a relatively exceptional incident happening, already made more exceptional by him being a peak fame superstar, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen precisely as it looks like it did.
Point 2, your next technique is to establish doubt around a limited (and irrelevant) point. Unless you’re stating that Cobain was still alive later than stated, or you’re stating that the ‘killer’ left the cash on the scene but stole his credit card, it doesn’t matter when an attempt was made to use Cobain’s credit card. It doesn’t support an argument for or against suicide. While a card might be stolen, or discarded then found and used, or a glitch might mean that the bank’s stated data isn’t perfect – unless you’re implying this discreet killer left the cash in Kurt’s wallet and took the card it’s irrelevant to your case.
3. You’re conjoining two separate things. The fact is three tyres on Cobain’s car are flat. You use the word deflated because, as you state in the first line, you’ve already decided someone actively did it. Thing is you’re speaking about a guy who was away on tour until second week of January – was back three weeks (and very high and spent a lot of time taking taxis to dealers), then gone another month… So why is the number of tyres flat a factor in your decision that its deliberate damage? Again, there’s one fact – flat tyres on a car, then you have no data about when the car was last used. But you’re suggesting your killer decided to spend time outside the house waiting for the car tyres to deflate…There are easier ways to deactivate a car. Even deflated tyres can be driven on.
4. I don’t perceive any police department or individual as infallible, but I do see an individual who was tasked with a role – investigation – and who failed at it. Your point was to imply Dylan Carlson’s involvement in a plot – but you’ve no evidence of that. Your evidence could equally suggest Tom Grant’s involvement in a plot.
5. I requested a plumber attend my house the other day. It’s part of what being a home-owner requires. It also isn’t relevant to your case – whoever discovered the body, whenever they discovered it, it doesn’t matter. Leaving the body a few more days to let it deteriorate more would be fine. Again, the only fact is that an electrician went to the house to perform scheduled (and real) work. The arrival of the workman is no more evidence of a plot than the postman’s failure to notice anything amiss that morning is evidence that the postal service was behaving in a sinister fashion.
6. Now here I actually think you have a point. In the rush to keep the press pack happy, the police start releasing details too early. However, every component of their investigation and all evidence they’ve gathered (and last year reexamined) says they got it right. The burden is now on you to have evidence (rather than insinuations) that their evidence is incorrect.
7. There are numerous reasons no prints occur. It’s not uncommon. In this case, the gun is found in the hands of the victim – while you’re right, it may mean that someone else’s prints were wiped off first, you are looking at a situation in which the fingerprints of the person holding the gun when discovered have been removed by environmental conditions.
8. This ‘practice letter note’ has never been seen nor proven to exist. It relies on one man’s testimony. May I ask whether handwriting practice by a child should always be kept as potential evidence? There’s not even a need to leave a note – far cleaner and easier to not bother. It’s intriguing that people simultaneously accept the note as real AND claim part of it isn’t. Or claim the whole thing is fake. Then need to explain how the note wings its way to Seattle… Bit of a palaver isn’t it when just a quick “I’m so sorry” would have done the trick or no note at all? A significant number of suicides leave no note.
Your certainty regarding Ian Curtis versus your absolute certainty of non-suicide in Cobain’s case is delightful. The balance of proof and circumstance in the Cobain case, I would say, is toward suicide. Absolute perfection? Nope, but enough that 21 years later you’ve no proof supporting the case for muder? Yep.
Ultimately I’m quite a practically minded soul. You want ‘justice’? OK, well a case must be submitted to the institutions of justice (i.e., police, secret service, judiciary.) That’s what burns me really, maybe there were leads 21 years ago – but there’ll never be and cannot be one now, it’s all gone. The one person who could have sparked an investigation, Tom Grant, chose to go to the entertainment media rather than to the judiciary – he could have gone to anyone. And since then he’s had 21 years to reveal his tapes to someone in a position to provide the justice you (and others) desire…And he hasn’t. That guy let justice go cold, has refused to open the investigation you want, has failed to involve the only bodies who can fulfill you goal. That’s pretty tragic. 21 years of using his mythical tapes for entertainment not justice.
Cali was also a junkie who would take drugs with both Kurt and Courtney. He was more the house keeper than the nanny (they had to employ other nannies in the end as Cali was in no state to look after Frances). He was more their friend than their employee so yes, that note seems reasonable. Especially since he was getting shit from Courtney for not looking for him properly.
It’s my belief that Cali didn’t understand the severity of Kurt missing (as he was smacked out at the time) and that’s why the note was left.
Hello Soulsby. Not every point of my post was supposed to be give a point to the death conspiracy either way. I did not say she fed him drugs to keep him weak the other way around I think she wanted him to have serious opiate withdrawal and concentrate on that instead of what had transpired in rome . I don’t think he is some child you can feed anything on the contrary like most opiate users no one needs to feed them anything take the opiate away though and they are bedridden,anxious people . IF someone tried to OD him in Rome this rehab thing would be a great way to give them some air . That the four wheels supposedly had the air let out of them , that she said be sure to check the greenhouse and when they didn’t called an electrician tellin him to start working on the greenhouse is very suspicious . But I’m still at a 60/40 , he portrayed himself as suicidal sticking a toy rifle in his mouth on a photo shoot , that prob being near to how it looked last seconds of his life , mentioning that he had been suicidal before the note from my layman eyes being written by him . He mentions in his journals that he layed on the traintracks waiting for it to drive him over as a youth all points to suicidal tendacies . I also recognice that I dont want my ‘idol’ to have shot himself and therefore am biased .
Thank you for the site also I’ve been reading it nonstop since I found it, def getting you’re book when I have money .
Apologies fella, definitely sorry if it sounded like I was having a go.
I’m still not convinced – the electrician/greenhouse bit relies on the testimony of one man, Tom Grant, made after he failed to properly check the location. It’s all so much more elaborate than the basic tale. The time to kill him would always have been when he was in the house, not when he was randomly on the run – unless people are suggesting Courtney had him on cam and observed his flight from rehab and knew exactly where he was…
I’d never heard the car tire thing…But, again, given the location of the house and Cobain’s tendency to use taxis (readily available) I’m not sure of the relevance at all. It takes time to go round deliberately deflating four tires, would a first-time killer be calm enough to waste time like that when he could be observed? Would a practised killer really need to bother…?
Heh! What the hey, it’s all background to the Nirvana love. Stay good over there!
Quote – Your certainty regarding Ian Curtis versus your absolute certainty of non-suicide in Cobain’s case is delightful. The balance of proof and circumstance in the Cobain case, I would say, is toward suicide. Absolute perfection? Nope, but enough that 21 years later you’ve no proof supporting the case for muder? Yep.
No there is no evidence supporting the case for murder in the cobain case, not once did i ask or state that. I asked a questions on the questionable series of events and facts, in varying degrees of validity, that have not been answered. If there was proof supporting murder, someone at this point would be a convicted felon. With the ‘delightful’ ian curtis comparison it serves to highlight another rock icon suicide, that if the facts,details and accounts of the people involved before his death, (police report investigation) you will find not one anomalous or inconsistent event that warrants questioning or raises doubt on the verdict. This again is not proof Kurt was murdered. Understand?.
Totally fair to ask questions – 100%. And, the thing I do know and appreciate is that you and I clearly both care about Nirvana and have a commitment to the topic that I hugely respect. Hand on heart, I may question the evidence (and few people have approached as coherently as you have here) but I will never question your integrity, decency or quality as a person. All respect to you.
Last message on this topic good Nick and his loyal readers .
I believe it was their intention to have him stranded there yes! , turns out he made some withdrawals in advance and prob had cash on pocket (thank god) so yes now he could take taxi. and could buy the bullets for protection! .
Tires were flat . http://t31.org/~artone/tires.jpg
I also want to say you constantly say that there are no evidence . Or only one man’s witness to this and that , that is not true there are some things that can be found out still.!
Like the damn root beer! lol ! http://t31.org/~artone/thedamnrootbeerlol.png
Also Tom seems VERY honest and forthcoming excluding tons of things that could just be spewed out as ‘evidence’ if it was cash that motivated him . I see a sincere man who sees something is not right . This is probably a huge factor to you and me taking a diffrent approach on the case .
Have you noted that when Courtney says ‘ well so fucking what kurt dont be a rockstar then you fucking asshole ‘ . To him not wanting to play music anymore; when she is reading his suicide letters to the morners? . Well Courtney was the one dogging him the most to have to do the tour over and over would not give him any peace. So typical of her thank god shes a fantastic artist so I feel no ill feelings towards her , im after all not gonna hang out with her . ( <– This is not a point either way )
Kurt tried to buy a large 12.gauge riot shotgun with extended magazine but was told he had to wait a month for it . A online friend called the store for confirmation of this if Dylans and Toms statements are also something you consider as 'no evidence for this ' . This shows to me that the gun was intended for protection , probably from his own wife .
There are also Police confirmation that Courtney was very aware that 1 he was at home .
There is also not only Tom Grant saying Courtney called the electrician to begin work on the greenhouse that much can be made out from the police papers altho it does not say she specifically said Begin work on the greenhouse to them it is clear that she called and ask them to begin working on the property on April 6th .
I dont think she is lying , http://www.justiceforkurt.com/multimedia/nanny_interview.asx . At all none of the indicators are there .
I think you should of done a lot more digging in the actual proof , police reports etc and the details before writing a 3 page rebuttal , there are way more points than the Standard ten or so things most fans just recite without giving it any thought for themselves .
Also I did not feel at all like you were having a go at me , I was just glad to see you responded! .
I was also wondering maybe this is a big favor to ask someone , I've seen youre take on a few lyrics and you have a very similar take as me . I would love to see one on Do re Mi , this is some I greatly would LOVE to see if you someday sometime feel like doing this it would be christmas for me .
Take care and ❤ all you Nirvana Fans out there .
The world’s premier rock star decides not to phone is many professional/personal contacts through whom he could have easily acquired money. He wasn’t financially isolated except in the sense that he chose to cut himself off from everyone.
Deflated tires on the car? Please, he’s in a well-to-do suburb of a major city, are you suggesting that having made it all the way back from rehab he was incapable of jogging down the street, knocking on a door, or just calling another cab like the one he took to get there in the first place?
Genuinely sir, I think the path to conspiracy is laden with red herrings and things that don’t mean anything placed next to other things that don’t mean anything – but having one meaningless thing next to another meaningless thing is meant to somehow bestow it meaning, like a black hole devouring and annihilating fact and reality.
As for the Courtney quote from the memorial… Well, to be fair, what’s wrong with encouraging him to do the darn gigs and look after his family? And, in turn, what’s wrong with resenting his “woe is me” line when he really did have a choice? She’s right; he could have stopped and more or less had.
In reply to your quote ‘The fact is three tyres on Cobain’s car are flat. You use the word deflated because, as you state in the first line, you’ve already decided someone actively did it’
Wrong; it was all four tires as the police report testifies.
Fact is 4 tires were flat, not conclusive proof or murder, but still yet another of the many detail sin this case that have not been explained.
…The post man didn’t notice anything that morning. Five forks had moved from the kitchen drawer to the sink and not been replaced. And the tree opposite dropped a branch…Yet more details unexplained.
The tyres were flattened before the intervention to stop Kurt from escaping from that. That’s why Krist had to drive him around at that time.
Excellent knowledge, nice one!
I actually have a photo of Allen Wrench with Kurt Cobain wearing the shirt he died in. It is on my Facebook page, ‘Kurt Cobain Murder Public Discussion.’
Heh! That’s pretty cool – I’ll go check it. Nice one fella.
David Nelson do you still have that photo and when was it taken ? Thanks 🙂
I’ve seen it. For some reason the eyes have been blacked out which leads me to believe that whoever posted it like that wanted to deliberately trick those into thinking it was Allen Wrench. The photo without the blacked out eyes probably show that it most definitely is not Allen Wrench.
perhaps the killer was smart enough to leave the cash and only take the card, or maybe they got freaked and bolted before they had time to do everything they planned on, there is so many what if’s and opinions we could talk about on what could have happened. even tho tom grants audio tapes are revealed to us in small increments, courtney love does say some things that raise suspicion. one being the comment about his death helping her record sell, thats pretty disturbing. in fact everything tom grant has revealed makes sense and is highly possible. the problem is that all of us is left with a big fat ? mark, that will never be answered. as fans all we can do is be thankful for everything the man shared with us. every fan has shared a unique personal experience with nirvanas music, thats exactly what nirvana is…an experience.
If someone says something ridiculous then we say “that’s bullshit.” When someone says a whole string of ridiculous things then we say “ah, well, no smoke without fire.” The Tom Grant tapes, to my mind show nothing that particular supports the conspiracy theory – it just shows an always blunt and provocative lady who says things that shock. Nothing more.
As you say though, it’s no longer about Cobain, it’s about individual fans’ personal desires and interests – he’s dead, the theorising belongs to everyone now.
His audio is in small increments because it costs too much money for more bandwidth. So many sheep try & make Grant out to be a grifter & gold-digger when this whole case has done anything BUT help him professionally & financially. People really need to do more due diligence towards his investigation before they speak on it.
You’re extremely welcome to comment – and to supply alternative perspectives, go for it, welcomed. I’ve deleted the comments where nothing but swearing and demands that other people shut up occurred because they added nothing. Beyond that…Well, it seems we differ. It costs too much money to put up audio files? In 2014? Gosh…Again, with a myriad channels throughout which to bring a reputable investigative agency or law enforcement agency to bear on this case we’re still left, 8,000 days after Kurt Cobain’s death, with no investigation, no hint that Mr. Grant has initiated any attempt at proper legal or enforcement review, with barely a shred of his supposedly critical recordings in the public domain. In other words, cool, believe whatever you wish and we can talk about again in ten years when there’s still no investigation. Be intrigued to see if things chance of course. Until then, stay good and enjoy.
My reasons for not having much interest in Tom Grant is the absence of any attempt to convert his two decades of naysaying and accusations into any kind of actual investigation or case involving a reputable body.
My continued feeling that the ‘Cobain was murdered’ school of thought is lacking something rests on the absence of any evidence supporting it. The ‘suicide’ school has the official investigation by the people who actually saw the crime scene and the body. It has a body killed with its own gun which is in its own hand and with its own drug kit. It has the support of anyone and everyone actually anywhere close to the victim during his final months.
The ‘murder’ case seems to rest on shifting sands in which a discarded drinks can is drugged (no evidence), in which the murderer departs by diving off a balcony (no evidence), in which the only person ever to claim knowledge of ‘who dun it’ was a drunk and his drinking buddy, in which people who have no criminal records related to violence let alone murder (Cali DeWitt, Dylan Carlson, Courtney Love) are suddenly conspirators or stooges, in which details appear and disappear…
…But what gets me most is usually that those making the ‘murder’ claim wrap it in semi-religious demands that one BELIEVE, in cultist claims to be the ‘unveiled special ones’ who know the secret truth, who turn the absence of wider support or credible sources into dark muttering of conspiracies and who refer to everyone else as ‘sheep’ as if they were the only ones bright enough or smart enough to be rewarded with the truth.
You’re right. You need to do one heck of a lot more professionally and financially to make a case. I’ll listen when it happens – and until then, sorry, like everyone on this planet I have every right to speak on it and to speak my truth. I don’t demand anyone listen to me or adopt my views.
Here we are on the 20th anniversary, I’m not so sure you’re still replying to these but I simply must give it a shot. I LOVE your argument structure, impeccable logic yet holes unfilled. Your argument lacks enough consideration towards the El Duce/Allen Wrench situation. How do you explain El Duce ending up on the train tracks just days after simply throwing out Allen’s name to a documentary crew that Love was closely monitering? Pretty significant coincidence there. I hear Wrench knew ju-jitsu, something that would help with forcing a huge man unconscious on rail tracks and likely means he was fit enough to sneakily superman out the balcony window without causing a stir. Also noone heard the gunshot, why would the killer be worried about his escape? Of course he’d leave the only door locked still… You also neglect the fact that Courtney went from a soon to be under 50% Cobain estate owner to 98%. That she had a lot to gain and perhaps in breaking up with her he’d spill personal beans she didn’t want to risk the public hearing. That’s my take from the limited information I’ve gathered in this week that I’ve looked into it.
El duce was a drunk and he prob either killed himself or just passed out there . Maybe he was offerd money . The most damaging evidence is that she practiced Cobains handwriting (see chorus verse chorus part 9 , however I think she just drove him to suicide in the end. And even if she didn’t he might of OD’d sooner or later. I think its a suicide but Courtney is not a grieving widow shes probably happy it happend. Might of had some regret I dont know if shes straight up the sociopath she appears to be. But she was def the complete opposit of Cobain
Bi-polar opposits attract
all of a sudden my water broken
I love you for what I am not.
In the end it was clear they were gonna split she never stopped being a groupie just like she cant stop name dropping. I hope Frances got her fair cut but it seems like she can manipulate Wendy too into taking from the fund I mean. She is the worst thing that happend to Kurt and I think he would either be alive or dead from a overdose if they never met . I know my druguse escalated 20times fold when I met my wife with borderline might be the same for him. He looks so fat n happy in the nevermind picture then shortly after meeting Courtney he is “Heroin thin” .
There is just so much into this that cannot simply say oh suicide lets move on.
Who can cap their syringe and then blow their head off? that still buggles my mind .
I’m with soulsby/the documentary Kurt and Courtney that with the 60-120 second timeframe before that heavy dose fully hit he could not only hold and pull the trigger but possibly scribble down some drug-induced change of mind from possibly only leaving the band to clear suicide few lines then pull it. As a fan I love the idea of that as proof, but as a realist feel Grant’s case is not only invalid but supports the idea of intended suicide as who knows that he doesn’t die of overdose if he had indeed been unable to pull the trigger.
I lean towards testomony from those that knew him best and the sheer craziness of the El Duce piece of this puzzle. Perhaps drunk people have passed out on train tracks and died before but with what he’d just said is a completely different matter sir. Was there ever a formal investigation on his death? Duce passed a polygraph test about his claims, maybe Allen Wrench/Courtney Love should be polygraphed?
I mean lets make a questioner , You have injected something it will kill you in 30 seconds or less you don’t wanna fuck up and shoot your chin off . A million out of a million would inject vastly throw the syringe away and take aim for at least 5 seconds then do the dead . Its damn near impossible to cap the syringe and put it in the cigarr box! This is the most damaging . Not that you can’t do it it takes one or two complete blood circulations for it to hit . So it can be done but if u wanna add in capping and rolling down ur sleeve? it just docent seem possible . Also who bleeds from the nose when they take too much champagne and benzodiazepines? I’ve seen this irl more times then i’d like to recall (yes all the way to “coma” ) Theres no damn nosebleed unless someone getings u fucked its called roofs for a reason dater ape drug . Pops one or two in the champagne then holds ur noose and forces more into you. This will be a hazy memory that will keep returning bit by bit month by month .
There is a lot ALOT to this that smells bad and Yes a Poly would settle it for me . Why docent she wanna do a polly? is she never tired of us nirvana fanboys calling her a murderer? . Why docent she wanna prove that she is not guilty we are talking about the same fanbase as hers her after all . Her records sales could of gone thru the roof if she did a poly early on (early meaning 0-3 year) . She met Kurt 2-3 years later he was dead and she had all the money . Talk about a great marriage.
On another note my bitch of a wife stole ALL my money and left me last friday . I was beaten by the cops and taken into acute psyche . Where they said that me having nirvana shirts etc proved I was suicidal , god I wish he lived so we don’t have to live in the aftermath of his god damn death as soon as you mention nirvana .
If a psychiatrist had one of those exercises where they say banana you say yellow.
The normal person
That is such a fragment of his personality althobeit tricking interesting . Theres so much more to this saga but look this post has 24 comments now . Obvs his death is whats the most interesting . I remember nirvana fans from before he died they all seemed so cool now its a bunch of whiny people who are like I also think about suicide I’m like Cobain . God Screw them all
I’ll end this on something funny
I think I accept that he likely did it after watching ‘About a Son’ and reading a few more unbiased biographies. He had everything in line for happiness with or without Courtney once he put Nirvana to the side, perhaps only temporarily, and got his stomach treated. I think he figured he had to leave Courtney to leave Nirvana, that that stardom was all that kept her from leaving him for Billy Corgan. The happiness with Tracy and briefly Court combined with misery all throughout life living on his own made him so co-dependant and unable to see any good from leaving her so he died in the way he so oft’ said he would. I still think there’s more weight to the murder side than Soulsby gives credit and wish he’d reply as we rape his comment board. At minimum SPD should open the case enough that some renegade detective with more logic than Grant was granted digs into the big ?s with more bravery than Broomsfield. Those HoF ceremony performances were terrible from the brief tidbits I saw. ‘Jokes on you fans we’re putting girly girls in at lead’. Not cool at all but maybe the full versions are better. Best of luck with your wife/kid, don’t be like Kurt in that regard.
I posted a video link up in the comments above. In case anyone didn’t see it, in it the detective who was in charge of the case finally 20 years later admits the level of heroin in Kurt’s blood was very high and definitely lethal.
Toward the end around 11:15 – the detective actually says that it was about 10X the dose he has ever seen anyone do even a heavy user and that they have never had any other case where someone was found with that much heroin in their system.
Well, it’s official and not just a crazy conspiracy theory now. The main cop said the dose was huge and deadly.
Instead of all your assumptions I will tell you that with that amount of heroin you WILL overdose but you’ll have about Seven seconds to make some sort of coordinates effort. Whether he could of grabbed the shotgun idk but let me tell you this he’d have to do it almost instantly before the hard rush set in leading to extreme respiratory depression and eventually failure. I know I shot dope for four years and had a very high tolerance. But you can always over due it. 5 to 7 seconds is all he had if you don’t believe me try it yourself . It comes on very fast .
Well, to be fair, Kurt Cobain took that amount of heroin and was still able to die from the shotgun blast not from respiratory depression and/or the effects of the heroin – implies that he was either fast or had high tolerance meaning he did it himself, or had high tolerance meaningwhile the supposed murderer faffed about propping him in position and getting the gun ready to go Cobain was enduring the heroin more than long enough to still die from the gun not the needle.
Stating that Kurt died from the shotgun vs. the lethal heroin doesn’t really matter. If he had died from heroin before the shotgun then that would have proven (even with SPD) this was a homicide.
Your point doesn’t prove that he would have been able to put away the syringe and then shoot himself.
Exactly as you say, if Cobain died from the heroin dose not the shotgun blast then it would prove that it was a homicide. The point proves that he was alive at the time the shotgun was used, an unknown period of time after the heroin injection. There’s no way of proving what he was/wasn’t capable of in a total, absolute way except to say that there’s plentiful evidence of heroin users taking higher doses than Cobain and being able to function. Saying that one person could/couldn’t doesn’t mean Cobain could/couldn’t.
I shot dope for years & when I was doing it at home or some other place I was comfortable & in no rush, I never took a hit & then neatly packed up & wiped all my works. Especially not after taking a massive hit like KC had. Half the time I didn’t even get the needle out until well after my nod. To take a hit like that, wipe down & pack up your works & then summon the mental energy/fortitude to put a shotgun in your mouth & pull the trigger within the 7-10 seconds it’d take for the dope to hit him is just ridiculous. Not to mention that since his death, his heroin habit has been blown WAAAYYYYYY out of proportion.
Fair play, you’re allowed to counter opinions that state Cobain had a major heroin problem with your opinion that he didn’t. That’s legit – it doesn’t give your opinion more weight, nor does your personal experience on heroin because it turns out that one person’s personal experience doesn’t account for the experiences of all humanity. It’s why my opinion is just my opinion – I just aired it here.
THANK YOU! To me the biggest clue is that little needle cap,there is NO WAY he shot up that much dope then put that little ass cap back on the needle-it doesn’t make ANY sense!
‘Instead of all your assumptions I will tell you that with that amount of heroin you WILL overdose but you’ll have about Seven seconds to make some sort of coordinates effort.’
What would be the point of dying such a traumatic painful death (even if it’s only a second of pain) when you could wait for the heroin to just kick in and kill you if that was the case? Seems like overkill but as I’ve stated in other comments it doesn’t matter how much heroin was in his system as everyone’s tolerance is difference and our bodies all handle things differently.
If I decided to die, I’d rather go the heroin route where it’s is just euphoria then deep nod then dead, then blow my frigging head off, doesn’t make any sense to me.
But respect your opinion though.
Likewise! My feeling is you’ve got it right, that there’s plentiful evidence of heroin usage exceeding the Cobain dosages and users remaining functional – but, likewise, depending on the individual/the purity or otherwise of what they’re taking/the moment, lots of evidence of people keeling over from far less. The dosage in and of itself doesn’t mean ‘fatal’ – and the reality is Cobain died from a gunshot wound not from heroin so he was alive long enough to die from a bullet.
I’ve read and read, dug deeper and deeper only to over exceed my fascination with Kurt Cobain himself. A lot of questions I have for Kurt, but most off I think Courtney DID kill Kurt, how? Well, when a wife loves a husband that has a lot of troubles she stands by him and does her best to keep him happy. If Kurt wasn’t happy and I was his wife I’d do whatever it took to make him feel better. Courtney said “why even be a rockstar?” about Kurt but Kurt didn’t CHOSE to be a singer or in the spot light. She couldn’t understand that Kurt didn’t like the spot light and he wanted to be in the back as a drummer in a band. Unlike Courtney who stepped on a lot of people just to get her name out there, Kurt didn’t have to do that and she couldn’t understand that he wasn’t a conformist. Anyway I have finally come to the conclusion that with all the screaming and guitar playing Kurt was doing, he didn’t like it. Anyone try to scream through one of his tracks? I’ve read that Kurt would only record tracks 3-4 times because he was impatient and would eventually blow his vocals out. That to me is saying that his vocals were taking a pounding, his next record was suppose to be solo acoustic which would (I think) be easier then wailing all the time. Anyway I’ve had family members try to commit suicide and the letters they leave behind are always confusing and go unanswered, so we are only left to speculate. To boddah and the last 4-5 lines are all written in the crazy large printed writing. Who’s to say Kurt really couldn’t get away from Courtney? I think another possibility in everything is that Kurt may have wrote the original letter about quitting then stored it away and then when the time came to finally say goodbye he retrieves the letter and adds onto it thinking about boddah, Frances and unfortunately Courtney because Kurt did have a fuckin heart. After all, the way he met Courtney she was pursuing him strongly and there was a time he couldn’t get away from her but he did want to stay single during that time but couldn’t side step Courtney. But I think Courtney is a leech and she spots out your flaws and then cuddles them like a baby just so you THINK she loves you and unfortunately Kurt fell for it. Numerous times it’s been said that Courtney would say “what, you gonna kill yourself?” to Kurt. How would you feel if the person you love starts saying shit like that? That’s definitely not the way to live and Kurt on many occasions said he wasn’t suicidal but now at home he’s hearing it from his wife and the public, which he loathes entirely. Last, the handwritings in Courtney’s backpack was PROBABLY so she could siphon off his money by forgery. Kurt’s credit card, it was said that Kurt came home before he died and his friend Dylan was there with his girlfriend. Dylan had to fly his girlfriend home and Kurt gave him his credit card to pay for a plane ticket. Dylan also does drugs and said he thought seeing Kurt in his room was a dream but really Kurt was in there, Kurt talked to Dylan’s girlfriend before leaving the card and that was it. Everyone wanted him, his money and talent.. that is everything he had, what was left for Kurt Cobain besides death? He couldn’t have himself so no one now can have him, it’s unfair but what is really fair in life? Also the last music he heard was R.E.M’s album, has anyone listened to Everybody Hurt’s when they are in a great depressive state? That song hurts more than it tries to help. The dosage in Kurt system, I’m not sure and it maybe one of the few questions I have left. Could it be possible that Kurt inject one dose and then maybe sit for a little while and contemplate death? Could it be that taking the heroin be Kurt’s way of saying to Courtney “I’m a rockstar, I like heroin and I’m going to die with it in my system so you can’t come save me and bitch me out later or for the rest of my life.” Then after writing the last few lines take another injection of heroin and then shoot himself, leaving us to believe the rockstar injected the full lethal dose all at one time? All I know is Kurt Cobain grew on me, his views and the way he felt help me with my own mental illnesses. I think Kurt Cobain deserves to be loved even after death and Courtney Love deserves to be in a mental home so she can’t hurt anyone else. It was said from Courtney that Kurt wanted to do heroin because he didn’t think it affected anyone else. Courtney said she called Kurt while in rehab and told him he had dropped Frances on her head when he was doing drugs. To Kurt his family meant everything, Courtney later says the last words they spoke to each other were not so great. I truly believe Courtney pushed Kurt to kill himself and the letters he left to her was him telling her he loves her but he couldn’t deal with her. Who knows? The feeling of withdrawals and stuff probably pushed him more than anything to end all the pain. Overdose in Rome? I think that was Kurt trying to gain the same affect (pain reliever) that heroin does but accidentally taking too much only to never succeed in numbing the pain. OK I’m done.. Think for yourself and try not to read into Kurt’s music as much, he would have wanted you to enjoy and interpret it yourself. 🙂 So in the end Kurt’s lyrics are his random thoughts and feelings. He never wanted people to look into them so hard but instead enjoy the music and gain your own feelings about his music from your own life experiences, so I think we should do that even with his death try not to look so hard into it. ❤ RIP KURT COBAIN! His music was like his art.. Worth a thousand words.
You are Confusing Dylan with Cali , the nanny . Mrs Cobain is smarter then to base a scheme on a credit card , she would not need his credit card she is his wife . He did it cause she was cheating he was madly in love and thought this was the best way to get revenge , however it played right into her hands . She did not love him as much more the life style. It is a known fact that she is the one who blocked the credit card , also heroin gets transformed into morphine a lot faster then it takes too come down and then take more . It was heroin o.d level not morphine , (I think ) .Courtney was his fifth girlfriend I wonder what number he was . Watch the latter part of the chorus verse chorus documentaries they are great in details .
Wow, that’s the longest comment anyone has ever left on here! Kudos and hey, thanks for caring enough to write it all – I guess I don’t want to add anything other than a friendly wave here because I think your thoughts are erudite and well spoken and deserve to be considered without me sticking my oar in. All respect.
If he had of been withdrawing then trust me I’d understand the suicidal thoughts etc but because he had heroin it would of blocked all that out trust me I’m an ex user myself and I know how it feels to withdraw and the mental state is awful with the emotions of everything you blocked out with heroin flooding in, but by doing that one fix would of got rid of a lot, not all of it obviously but a lot.
Such a shame and really don’t want to point fingers.
Youre forgetting Courtney has feelings too. On top of trying to manage her career and take care of a baby. “A wife should make her husband happy” What about the husband making her happy? I doubt being in a relationship with kurt was sunshine and rainbows. I doubt she was happy in that relationship either. From a bunch of accounts its said she took care of him like a mother. There are many accounts of her having to save him from ODs, and he constantly threatened suicide. I wouldnt want to be in a relationship like that.
The missing persons was the key in protecting courtney.Had the police not been duped into believing he was suicidal,a proper investigation is made.Now courtney knows she is protected,not because the spd are in on it,but because they are compromised.So does it matter how sloppy calli is in using the card?no,because the spd knows they would be open for libel from parents of kids who committed copy cat suicides.So most likely,cobain who is now armed,stays in the greenhouse as a watch out.Calli tricks him,drugs his root beer,shoots him up,shoots him in the mouth,then leaves the note courtney gave to him.Simple stuff really.
…Simple? OK, it relies on the assumption that a wife doesn’t report her husband missing when he’s actively run away from a drug rehab facility – of course, if Courtney Love hadn’t filed a missing person’s report numerous people would now be using it as ‘evidence’ of her not caring about Kurt, Catch 22 for her. It relies on the Police relying exclusively on the missing persons report to govern and decide whether they investigate or not – and what precisely are they investigating? A body that’s been in a locked room for three days with every indication of suicide (don’t give me any of that ‘jumping from the balcony while pulling the stool into such a tight position it looks like it’s wedged’ stuff). The SPD would not be open to libel actions from parents – why on Earth would they be? Other people assume the card being used is evidence of ‘something going on’ – I assume it’s just another meaningless factoid with multiple far more reasonable explanations. Courtney doesn’t need protection – she’s a thousand miles away trying to get her album out with a baby in tow, nothing linking her to the scene, no credible witnesses to her being in any way involved in what plays out in Seattle. Root beer drugging? Why not just wait until the heavily addicted addict takes his next shot then do it then? Cobain can stay anywhere he wishes and has been doing so for days – he doesn’t need to hide in a greenhouse… You may very well be right but Gods, convoluted isn’t it? Ultimately the fun bit is that we can talk about it forever because there’s no evidence of any of it – woohoo! 🙂
quote I assume it’s just another meaningless factoid with multiple far more reasonable explanations.
Don’t assume, show Facts! until then this and the other unexplained ‘coincidences’ will be questioned
Questions are SO legitimate, feel free. But here we are, 21 years later, and there’s not one shred of actual evidence apart from the truth suggested numerous times. In the end this is more a faith-based discussion.
Cali may have called someone in after giving KC the roofies to “finsh the job” & set-up the “suicide”. But you’re right, at the VERY least, he’s the one who got the roofies into KC.
Also, his credit card WAS being used in the days before & after his death right up until the morning he was found. Not by whomever killed him but by KRISTEN PFAFF (or MAYBE, but not likely Caitlin Moore) whom he was going to run off with & who was the “mystery person” whom the other plane ticket was bought for to leave Seattle (the credit card company could’nt find out where the tickets were to go to, just how much they cost). The flight was supposed to leave the first week of April, he was holed up above the garage in the greenhouse so he could survey the entire property & see whomever may have been entering while he awaited his flight out of town.
Its my opinion that people latch on to the whole murder thing because, even after all this time, we have a difficult time accepting that someone who we thought was like a God would suddenly leave us all. I still listen to his music, and now my kids do too. Everyday, its Nirvana blaring from my son’s room. When I hear my son singing along, it makes me smile, and once again our “God” is with us. 🙂
Sounds about right to me – but then, I guess it’ll never be done, not really. It’s just a form of entertainment now, an endless unresolved thing for some people.
Far nicer to hear that the music is still being picked up and enjoyed. My lil’ sister loves it too.
Alright IV been quietly reading this shit for a good while and I can’t be silent anymore unlike most of the people here I’m sure, I never liked nirvana . Not untill I turned the age he WAS KILLED . Look you got facts and people just want to hide them because it’s so much deeper than he hated himself his wife wanted his money the bottom line he kurt was alive today would you son listen to his music ? Fuck no would anybody give a fuck about nirvana or kurt cobain ? Not like they do with things being the way it happend . It goes for all the great ones they make more money dead than alive and when I die I will to.
Thanks for resolving that Derek! 😉 To be fair, like many bands, Nirvana would still have fans just as the Beatles and John Lennon and Elvis and Joy Division and Sex Pistols, etc. all had fans and continue to have fans regardless of the death of someone who was converted into a talisman. You’re completely right, however, that Cobain’s death catapulted things to a new level. I do feel, however, that you’re over-estimating the predictability of fame and fortune – you’re ‘reading backwards’ and saying that because he’s made a lot of money post-death it was guaranteed that the income stream would have always been what it is and could be sustained the way it has been. That’s a massive uncertainty even leaving aside the very dubious and insubstantial evidence of foul play.
I always just figured the card was left as collateral with a drug dealer or something. wasnt he having some cashflow problems? Paying a waitress with a cheque? Junkies front all the time, and I could see that being left with a heroin dealer to front a hefty ammount of drugs (who wouldnt believe him hes a big rich rockstar of coarse he’ll pay it back) who later without knowing he was dead attempted to use it as revenge for not payin on time or some shit.. Total made up speculation, but I doubt it was stolen in such close proximity to his death, also no one would kill him then try and use it that doesnt even make sense
As you say – what’s happened is people piling up unproven, unprovable hypotheticals then claim that the pile of “nothings” mean there’s a “something” hidden underneath.
Absolutely, we’ll never really know who had the card but we can make all sorts of hypothesis about who had it and why without collusion with murder. The latter seems the least likely scenario to me- even with all the rest of the “circumstantial evidence” it still seems highly improbable to me that someone killed him then went around trying to use his card. Why? Wouldnt they have a bunch of cash from the “hit”? Why not take the 200 bux he had lying around? Why risk incriminating yourself in a murder with petty purchases on your victims card? It makes no sense…
Kind of sad this particular post has the most replies…
Yah, I think the opiate argument pisses me off the most- a bunch of people with zero understanding of heroin acting like they’re experts. Lets just pretend for a second he was murdered.. We know from the photos that his hands were clutching the barrel so tightly the barrel burned his thumb and the m.e had to pry the gun from his body. This means he was not unconscious when he was killed, he was “resisting”. Meaning that dose did not incapacitate him whether he was murdered or not, so how does this even come into play in the argument? Also im supposed to believe someone else injected him inside a vein with him resisting? it would likely have began forming an abcess immediately had they missed a vein- do you know often people miss their own veins when they’re trying to hit them? How unlikely it is for someone else to hit your vein if you’re resisting? Not gonna happen.. Unless he was already being held down, but then it sounds like he’d already be incapitated doesnt it, whats the point of shooting him up? Makes no sense
Most of the stuff around the murder theory makes no sense – why wait for someone to run away from rehab to kill him? Why fake a note at all? Why drug and shoot when you could just drug even more if someone was ‘incapacitated’? Why shift to a garage room at all? It’s twenty years of people dumping speculation on top of speculation then claiming the height of the pile means it’s something other than nonsense.
Everything you just said is bullshit
I agree with jim. Most questions you have in life are answered with money. Kurt was worth more dead than alive, record sales after his death illustrate this. Kurt was a financially liability; pulling out of concerts losing millions, talking of pulling out of the limelight/business. Do morals and ethics dictate business? People in business have been killed for less. Does this point prove it was murder No, However the factual inconsistencies that have not been explained by the police raise a serious case, to question the official story, unlike with the Ian curtis suicide – a clear case of suicide, no question.
The same points you raise about Cobain – no witnesses, mixed intentions, future plans, limited forensics, etc. – could be raised about Ian Curtis if someone so wished. And yes, money does a lot of things to people – no doubt. I swear, if someday you demonstrate that there’s a case to answer I’ll bow and write a true and heartfelt confession of my wrongness in giant letters.
“Kurt was worth more dead than alive, record sales after his death illustrate this”. How could anyone possibly know that? We don’t know what he was about to do with his career. He could have been huge as a solo artist.
Yup, no one knew the ‘bubble’ was about blown on the grunge/alternative era bands so the idea that it was pre-determined…
This article is very poorly written. It’s like you take the evidence in which they found and use it to manipulate the argument in your favor, but your argument makes no sense. It’s perfectly logical that Courtney stole the letter from kurt months before and finished it on her own time.
Gave it to the killer when she paid him, and set up the scene. As you say, with the $120 laying beside him and the $63 dollars in his pocket, what’s he doing? Counting his money before he blows light load birdshot into his face?
Also, there were 3 rounds in the shotgun, quoting Tom Grant “what did he plan to do after he shot himself? Go duck hunting?”
Also, there was no need to jump off the balcony? All he has to do was lock the door from the inside, step out, then close it.
The stool is of no importance, it wasn’t even talk enough to block either doorway.
The gun wasn’t tested for prints for three months and the pen wasn’t tested for 3 years!
Also, if Kurt turner a pot over and stabbed the suicide note into the soil, why is there no hole in the suicide note?
Ah…That cunning manipulator Love – so, instead of keeping Cobain doped and vulnerable in Seattle she persuades him to go into rehab as a ‘cover story’ then while Tom Grant fails even to find Cobain when Cobain is lying still on a cold floor the killer by sheer chance finds him, persuades him to enter a room in the garage… And Courtney, between April 1 and April 5 has the note couriered to Seattle on the off-chance her hubby shows up there? You’re right, the stool is of no importance because Cobain locked himself in the room.
What really needs to happen is Tom Grant, who openly admits he is withholding ‘evidence’, should be reported to the FBI and made to hand over is tapes. 21 years – Cobain’s entire life from age 6, Nirvana’s entire career could be lived over in that time – and he’s still taking his case to the entertainment media not to the judicial authorities who might grant believers such as yourself justice and closure. Why is no one concerned that Grant has let the trail go cold and states he is withholding evidence from all of you?
The door was a push lock. It can be locked and then closed from the other side. Has no relevance. He either locked himself in or someone locked it on the way out.
why does he need to be put anywhere? . Wherever he choose to be is where he was gonna be found.In a motel in their other house or in the garage, He had someone over he trusted who cooked him up a hotshot . I still believe he killed himself tho. Specially now after understanding how lovesick he was and how he cheated on him and he knew about it. She played on his weaknesses !.
That’s what I find most curious in the ‘phenomenon’ really – most everyone who’s ever approached me about my total lack of belief in the murder theories usually ends up saying “oh, but having said that I believe he killed himself…” It’s like all the misogyny slung out under any article mentioning Courtney Love (I never see insults aimed at the blokes people say killed him – just at her…Sexism is alive and well it seems), all the chanting of “Cobain was murdered! Justice for Kurt!” is all just an intellectual game…Which it is of course.
I wouldn’t care if he was gay and she was a he. She is just a horrible person damn near a sociopath . I couldn’t care less what gender she’s apart of . Besides nirvana I listen mostly to l7/veruca salt / bikini kill even hole . I mostly hang out with girls so don’t try to say that just because she’s a woman she levitates above criticism .
Apologies Jim, not targeted at you for sure – not a comment on your good personage. But more widely, look under an article on Nirvana and note how much simple abuse – not criticism, abuse – that heads her way. Apparently even the people the murder theory peeps believe committed a killing don’t earn it.
Separate topic, Veruca Salt! Wow, nice to see them mentioned by someone. American Thighs is one of my all-time favourites. That just hit so hard.
I was a huge Nirvana fan when I was younger and although I liked Hole I found Courtney very abrasive so when I heard the murder theories I thought, well, she did it. But then after reading, and digging into everything, watching everything I could find on both of them, I have to come to the same conclusion as you and I actually have a new found respect for Courtney considering the crap she has had to put up with for 21 years.
I know people who are drug addicts and when I asked them about Kurt’s toxicology they were surprised it was even being brought up. You are spot on about the tolerance.
The letter and the supposed ‘practice sheet’ looking nothing alike. Looking at Kurt’s journals you can see he often wrote in that way.
The tyres were all slashed before the intervention to prevent Kurt from escaping that.
I could never understand how the credit care was ever brought up. Especially since Courtney was the one that alerted Tom Grant to the usage.
He killed himself. It’s incredibly sad but for us it’s nothing compared to what it must be like for his family and daughter. I see the murder trolls on Twitter and Facebook talking about Frances Bean and tweeting her about her father’s ‘murder’. Disgusting behaviour.
What I don’t get is why Tom hasn’t been more open about the supposed ‘evidence’ he has. He claims he has more that he will only show the SPD if the case is reopened. That sounds like rubbish to me. Especially since he’s been selling his books, getting his name out there and is now involved in a film about his theory. I don’t trust his motives one bit.
I’d not mind if he just released it all and let people decide but it’s a constant tease – I’ll show you some, but not all. I’ll claim I want to release it but I’ll only show the entertainment media not any authority who could do anything judicial or investigative…And I’ll let all trails go cold while talking, talking, talking…
He did take evidence and info to the police.
Unfortunately not true, he’s stated in two books now that he’s keeping back crucial evidence for when there’s a proper investigation. He did visit the police during the initial investigation (according to his own statement) but at that point he didn’t share evidence.
I believe Love has admitted to writing some of the suicide note. Not clear on what but I know it was some of what she read on MTV right after his death.
She pointed out she wrote the postcard last year but nothing related to the note.
I don’t really get the credit card. It was Courtney who reported that someone else was using his card. However, the card was put up for auction recently so who had it? No one has made this clear. At least one of the charges – Cobain’s plane ticket – showed up later than the day he purchased it so technical glitch is already a factor. The question then is that if it wasn’t stolen at all, did Cobain make the charges? There are almost $8,000 in charges after the plane ticket purchase. Who spends that and kills himself?
Tom Grant has removed his social media accounts (Facebook and Twitter). According to some of his followers who have been in touch with him he has decided to move on. This is all very odd. The film has just come out, he was still in touch with his fans about the case a few days before and there has been no official announcment from him. I would think that after all these years he owns the fans who have had so much faith in him some kind of information. Perhaps it’s in the works. Very odd.
Thank you for noticing my Twitter and Facebook accounts are closed. I didn’t notify anyone in advance because I didn’t have the time or inclination to either read or ignore, (due to time constraints), hundreds of “private messages” or “tweets” about my decision.
The reason for closing my social media accounts is very simple—I spend far too much unpaid time online dealing with issues surrounding the Cobain Case. Now that I’m no longer needed here, I must create a source of income to supplement my inadequate retirement income. Like everyone else, I do have bills to pay.
Since the release of “Soaked In Bleach” you now have Ben Statler and several highly qualified experts who are more than capable of taking the Cobain Case to the next level. It’s no longer a matter of MY opinion anymore! Prominent experts have expressed alarm and outrage over the improper handling of the case by the Seattle authorities as well as established evidence discovered about the events and details surrounding the death of Kurt Cobain. As most of you have seen, even the former Seattle Chief of Police, Norm Stamper, has stated that if he were the Chief today, he would reopen the Cobain case!
Even though my name seems to be permanently attached to the Cobain case, in reality, my name is now completely irrelevant. And I like that a lot!
Now that the basics of my story have been told on my website and through the release of Ben Statler’s great film, “Soaked in Bleach,” I’ve been personally analyzed and ridiculed by some, but all of that has been offset by compliments and words of encouragement from our supporters.
So I’m finishing a new page on my website at http://www.cobaincase.com that will focus on the specific issues that should result in the Seattle authorities changing the findings in Kurt Cobain’s death to “Undetermined” or “Homicide.” I think you’ll be amazed and surprised at the simplicity of this approach. It details the issues I’ve wanted everyone to focus on for years.
It’s time to take the focus off of me and put it where it truly belongs. I’m not yet sure what I’m going to name the new website page but it will deal with the strategy needed to bring all of our hard work to a successful end.
Once I’ve finished the new page, I’m going to be developing another website where I’ll be selling E-Books based on a variety of short, true stories. I’ll also be writing about several of my favorite topical issues. These E-books will sell for just a few dollars each and will, hopefully, help supplement my monthly income.
Thank you all for your support and understanding.
guys i killed kurt. Time to come clean
I’m not in anyway afraid of death…I’m afraid of dying now, I don’t want to leave behind my wife and child, so I don’t do things that would jeopardise my life. I try to do as little things as I can to jeopardize it. I don’t want to die.
— KURT COBAIN The Face, Sept 1993 edition
he thing you have to remember about all the talk of Kurt being suicidal is that all the talk only started when Courtney came out after the death and said Rome was a suicide attempt and the media picked up on all her examples of Kurt being suicidal. That’s when all these people started saying, ‘Of course he was suicidal, just listen to his music.’ But that’s a bunch of crap. Sure he was a moody guy and got depressed quite often. That applies to a hell of a lot of people, including me. But nobody ever talked about Kurt being suicidal before he died, Nobody. Why do you think everybody who knew him was so surprised when Courtney said that Rome was a suicide attempt?. I’ve read all this ignorant bullshit in the media pointing to the fact that Kurt wanted to call In Utero ‘I Hate Myself and I Want to Die.’ It was a joke, for chrissake. That was his warped sense of humour. He was the most sarcastic guy you’ll ever meet. He was not suicidal, at least not when I knew him, and I knew him for the last year of his life.
— Peter Cleary Kurt Cobain’s friend from
I totally agree with you! The idea that Kurt was ‘pre-destined’ for death is ridiculous. Suicide is a dramatic act – the rate of suicide was cut hugely in the U.K. just by changing from selling large pots of painkillers to only selling blister packs (people were less likely to pop out enough to kill themselves.) It indicates that there’s rarely long-term planning behind suicide. Pointing to the up/down yin-yang of Cobain’s nature, up one minute, down the next, simply indicates that it’s impossible to point to his words in 1993 and claim it says anything about the next week let alone next year.
Also remember that by 1993 he hated media intrusion and had learnt that lying about his state of mind reduced the number of lurid headlines prying into his family life.
Courtney manipulated the media by bringing attention to them that Kurt is suicidal to assist in sound reasoning upon the coming days when Kurt was to actually die. I would like to know where exactly was Courtney day and night of the 5th April when it has been said Kurt died ? If it is true that Kurt’s hair appeared so recently combed ( implying after he died ) this would be a very feminine act wouldn’t you say ?
The fact that is was ruled as suicide before the body ever left the scene is not proper procedure, should be enough to have the case re-examined by an unbiased expert or professional. All those things that you say is not facts or proof is called circumstantial evidence in a court of law, cause a lot of cases don’t have a smoking gun. I have seen tons of cases that got a conviction on a lot less circumstantial evidence than this case has. Wouldn’t you say that Courtney being friends with the M.E. be a conflict of interest?
There was a month-long investigation of Cobain’s death. While the police rightly stated that the evidence pointed to suicide and were confident enough to declare it at the time, the case wasn’t closed for several weeks.
Seattle is a very small town. No, Courtney (AND Kurt) knowing the medical examiner is only a conflict of interest if one believes in murder first. His job was not to rule suicide/murder, it was to rule cause of death which he did accurately (shotgun blast not heroin though heroin was present.) His relationship with Courtney was/is therefore irrelevant.
Which circumstantial evidence do you feel is/was strong enough?
Also. you can,t find one person that knew him well, say that he was suicidal. Everyone that knew him well, said he was not. Courtney was the only one saying it, And she spread it all over the media.
Hi Donna, best wishes to you. I’ve interviewed 210 members of 170 of the bands who played with Nirvana and have been in contact with numerous journalists interviewing him 1989-1994.
I’m very surprised you hate Dave Grohl and Krist Novoselic so much, that you hate Frances Bean Cobain. That you hate Cobain’s beloved sister. It’s just you seem to be saying that they’re all lying or idiots. When they were actually close to Cobain, Tom Grant, the makers of Soaked in Bleach, you and I were not.
whether you are being paid off by courtney to write this complete and utter BS or you are just mentally challenged, i feel pity for you. sorry about your luck.
your efforts to protect your evil, no talent ‘goddess’ killer have failed miserably. NOBODY is buying what you are selling. NOBODY.
All the people who came into contact with Kurt during his last tour stated ‘he was clean’, after CL’s first attempt at killing Kurt failed in Rome, it was noted he had NO heroin in his body, just the rohypnol prescribed TO CL, he was on a decreasing dose of subutex, a opiate replacement drug.
he called his attorney and asked her to get the divorce papers ready and to redo his will, leaving CL out of it.
he had 1 puncture mark in each arm. if he were a hardcore user there would be track marks and certainly more than 1 mark in each arm.
VERY LITTLE damage done to his head from an intraoral gunshot wound. open casket. do you know why??????? DEAD BODIES DON’T BLEED. he was dead before being shot.
why would ANYONE put their credibility on the line by protecting CL is beyond me.
the time is coming, this case will be reopened by proper authorities. she will be convicted of NOT ONLY Kurt’s death, but also Kristen Pfaff and El Duce.
Hi Chloe! Hope life is good today. The photos of Cobain in Paris clearly show skin damage due to his drug use – the final photo session in Paris is so bad he has to wear thick make-up. The gentleman who takes the photos is clear that Cobain is very clearly addicted. I’ve spoken to members of 170 of the 230 bands Nirvana played with 1987-1994 and they’re very clear regarding his drug status being physically visible. This includes the band the Buzzcocks who are clear Cobain was very much an addict in 1994.
Cobain did not die of a heroin overdose – he died of a shotgun blast. He was alive at time of death. Your information is incorrect. Your claim regarding ‘divorce proceedings’ is also unproven.
Brilliantly, I’m sorry to say, that no, there is no current investigation into Cobain’s death and that Tom Grant and his supporters have not placed a case before actual authorities during the last 21 years. They have, however, created a well made piece of entertainment this year.
Incidentally, the only person definitely paid by Courtney Love is Tom Grant. Who failed to discover the body, failed to independently map the property he was meant to look at, failed to conduct a professional investigation.
Its just another opiate but to me its everything . I got so high I scratched til I bled . Etc He was clearly physically hooked on the opiates . Hell you can hear it on his voice a lot . Interviewers who saw him when he had bloody clothes etc from shooting up . Also listen to the lyrics to “do re mi” it basically says hes gonna do it . You also have a suicide attempt at age 14 . Him talking about being suicidal in the 1993 mtg interview .
Bingo Jim! There’s tonnes of evidence of Cobain’s blurring of sarcasm and not so funny stuff. There’s tonnes of evidence of his appalling drug addiction. But as time goes on its ever easier to re-write that history.
Meh Kids Confused It’s all there in black and white . “We settled into the couch, a huge pile of penny candy on the coffee table. “I’m going to pour syrup all over this,” Kurt said, smiling like a demonic child. The fact that he craved sugar reminded me of all the rumors of his heroin addiction. He was very thin, and the cuff of his flannel pajama top was stained with drops of blood.”
According to members of the Buzzcocks who toured with him shortly before his death, Kurt was clean and not using anything. This is also backed up by bloodwork done at the hospital in Rome which showed no narcotics in his bloodstream. And that was a month before he died. Their is a big heroin scene where i live unfortunately. And the majority of fatal OD’s are from kids relapsing and no longer having the tolerance they once had. So i’m a little skeptical of him having the tolerance for such a huge shot. after being clean for so long. Not to mention heroin make you euphoric, not suicidal. The credit card is a legitimate issue because its obvious that it was someone else using the card. If it was Kurt, he would’ve called the credit card company to raise hell about his card being declined. If their is some innocent reason for someone else having his card, why have they never come forward?
Also lastly why has Courtney who has a history of violence and lawsuits against real and imagined foes, never taken Grant to court for slander? Her turning the other cheek with Grant is completely out of character for her, why? The only reason that makes any sense to me is that Grant’s allegations have some merit to them.
John, apologies, I interviewed the Buzzcocks for ‘I Found My Friends.’ They’re very clear he was not clean, he just didn’t use in front of them.
One other issue, check the photos of Cobain and Nirvana from mid-February in Paris where his skin is so damaged by drugs that he insists on wearing make-up. The photographer had known Cobain since the Australia tour of 1992 and is, again, very clear that this was heroin.
Hi all, just finished watching the documentary by the UK mob and became very interested in possible theories. After reading all of your thoughts and ideas I’m still no closer. All I know is that Courtney doesn’t seem to be a nice person. Anyway…….
I did have a look at the note Kurt left behind and thought of a possible reason for the ‘childlike’ writing at the end. Maybe these were his final – final thoughts and the heroin was starting to take therefore he may not have had a steady hand. Also, he may not have written the note all at once? Maybe the last few lines were at a different point in time? Not like a different day or anything but say an hour, two or three or four hours later when he is in a different headspace and starting to realise what he is about to do. If you knew you were about to die I don’t think you would be composed enough to write more neat and legible. Not that his previous handwriting was neat! Haha.
Just an observation.
The whole thing is very intriguing.
February 14, 1994 – Paris, France.
feeeck, he looks like hell here! this picture speaks volumes
Just adding to this, according to Everett True’s book ‘Nirvana’, Cobain was on methodone for part of the European tour. He was also apparently pretty loaded during a photo shoot in Paris (according to the photographer). I have seen people talk about his ‘bloodwork’ from Rome but I can’t find anything that mentions this. I find it hard to believe anyone would release this information.
An interview with the doctor who treated him in Rome:
“He knew a junkie when he met one.
“After he woke up, he told me it was an accident,” the doctor said. “He said he had been confused. He had taken pharmaceuticals and alcohol together. He said it was just a mistake.”
The doctor had his doubts. Cobain, he could tell, was a veteran needle-drug user. He could see that from the veins. And longtime drug users, the doctor knew, are rarely ignorant about the facts of pharmacology. “I made sure he had a room with no windows,” the doctor said”.
“It does confirm my suspicions,” the doctor said from Rome. “I don’t know what you can do in cases like this.”
Regarding Courtney not taking Tom Grant to court, I have always assumed that she WANTS to but has been advised not to. If they go to court and the court believes Tom Grant’s version then that could be potentially a disaster for her (obviously). I think she has advised not to chance it.
Either that or she enjoys the attention.
Well, a more cynical view would be that no one has done more to keep COurtney Love in the media eye for the last 20 years than Mr. Tom Grant. He’s basically her PR strategy of ‘all news is good news’ personified – she may as well still be paying him!
Ah, the Kurt was murdered case. Today is the 25th of February, 2016. It’s been quite some time that Kurt has left. Now, I’m usually not great at expressing certain things – I’ll probably miss a point or two along the way. Forgive me for that.
Lots of us know: it is very hard when someone dear leaves. I like to think that they’re in a better place, but still it hurts. I’m not taking this one out of my rear end: I lost someone to suicide and it hurt, it F’N HURTS even though it was long enough ago. As someone who battles clinical depression myself, though, let me say something with no offense meant: it is very nice that all of you care about Kurt that much, so much, actually, that you have tricked your own brain into thinking that you have “definitive proof” that he didn’t, you know, do it himself, but it’s also almost as if you were forcing himself into his “own personal room”, if you get what I mean. That locked door? It wasn’t simply a locked door, it meant something. And now some of you are trying to force yourselves into that room as if you had that right, as if you were that close to him. You weren’t, and probably some of you didn’t even get to shake his hand. Hopefully someone will get it and think about it.
Now, this is not supposed to sound pro-suicide or something. My point simply is: I know, you love Kurt, you really do, but respect his space and decisions. More than that: respect the fact that you weren’t close to him and didn’t share his personal life and troubles. When you love someone it is very easy to let their world “capture” you, it is easy to fall in someone else’s dream and be under the illusion that you share the same thoughts and ideals. Lesson of the day: you don’t. Most of what is “definitive proof” to some of you is mere conjecture, nothing more, nothing less. You’re so deep into that “I know Kurt Cobain!!” illusion that your brain has been working hard to process all that information and turn it into evidence to fill your desire to prove that “oh no, I know him, he wouldn’t do that – he was just tired of fame, that’s all”. For God’s sake, it terrifies me to say that, but there’s a huge chance that the guy felt RELIEF when he finally was able to hold that gun and end it all. It is terrible, it is sad, but that was the Cobain you loved so much – deal with it.
Depression is an awful thing, so please: if you truly love Kurt, the next time that someone close to you presents even the slight symptom of that awful disease, DO SOMETHING. Don’t let them fall inside of the same dark pit that Kurt and others that are so dear to us have fallen. There’s nothing delightful in depression, and there’s nothing beautiful about someone else’s decision to “end it all”. In Kurt’s case all that is left to do is respect that because it is already history, but don’t let the same fate fall upon someone close, please. Also, be aware of your position in society: you’re not any kind of authority or expert in anything, and sometimes it makes us look and sound terribly silly when we think that we have such “expertise” in an area because we had read something IN THE INTERNETZ!11! Seriously. It is almost as terrifying as Kurt’s decision itself that there are people out there theorizing upon the ways he may have held that gun, how he would have to do it to fall this or that way, etc. It’s disgusting and disrespecting to his memory. What’s next, the Illuminatti killed him? Please. After all, it seems that the “internet people” know so much about this world that authorities are becoming useless. Courtney Love wasn’t a huge example to anyone, but that’s what drug issues do to you, sadly. Anyone with such problems in their families and a heart in their chests know that it’s sad what that stuff does to people and the way they behave. Of course she may have been one of Kurt’s reasons to do what he did, but that doesn’t make her guilty of murder. Also, it’s always easier to blame someone or something for the loss of a dear one than to cope with it, isn’t it? Elvis died in 1977, but to this day people are saying he faked his death because it brings relief to their hearts. Michael Jackson died in 2009 and almost instantly people were theorizing on how he also faked his death because “he couldn’t have left us”. In the end, there’s nothing new or surprising here. Just a bunch of human beings being human beings – still and forever unable to cope with death. It hurts, yes, it does. It’s easier for us to die, but to lose those we love and feel left behind? Sh*t, it hurts.
May you be in true peace, Kurt Cobain, and sorry if I ever disrespected you for any reason (long story short: there was a period in my life when it was hard to accept Nirvana. Now I see that it was my own way to cope with his loss).
Well put, respect.
Lie all you want. I have the records of usage of the credit card used after Kurt was murdered. On film Mr Wench you dI’d confessed to Killing Kurt and your pal El Duce (he rated you out). Showing how rich you became after Kurt was dead (you were a poor white trash). Millions don’t fall from the sky. Doing my own search you are very guilty in my book. You’re time will come. SOOOOON.
Who are you talking to?
Fascinating. I look forward to seeing this one.
I think he’s talking to Courtney Love brilliantly…That’s new.
Darn it! He hasn’t come back.
El DOUCHE managed to kill one person , himself . But he might of been asked too , then again that woman talks alot
Sorry I’m late for the discussion but you’re wrong about overdosing on heroin.
From an ex smoker who has seen plenty of overdoses, (luckily they was all brought round) it can happen so fast that you don’t have time to even take the needle out the arm or it can happen after doing some chores, sit down relax and go into a deep nod which can sometime be the cause of the late overdose etc everybody’s tolerance is different and bodies react in different ways.
I’m only here to state the heroin part not the Kurt Cobain suicide/murder.
Also when I was put on methadone, I was under 7stone and 5ft tall on 100mg so it’s hard to say what is an incapacitating dose as I’d drink that for breakfast and still use heroin on top, mind you I was only 18 years of age and wasn’t taking it seriously until something within me snapped and decided I had to make a change.
When I was researching ‘I Found My Friends’, one lady told me about how she ended up going blind because her heroin was mixed with rat poison. We still talk often and it’s an honour everytime – plus glorious seeing how she’s turned all that around. Huge respect for anyone who can go through the hard side then build a life on it. Now that’s hardcore.
Hi courtney, nice writing! Where are the other bb’s from the birdshot? 7of them were found in kurt’s remains. None found on floor, in walls, none struck the glass ceiling. Disappeared! Kurt shot himself outside then walked in.no pool of blood.
You suspect that the police didn’t even query the absence of a pool of blood – or is it perhaps more likely that the nature of the injury fitted known parameters which is why a fully-trained professional coroner with plenty of previous experience of police cases (not to mention the team of police who arrived at the scene) were all satisfied that Cobain shot himself on site? Also, the pellets from a shotgun shell spread over distance – if fired at extreme short range they do not have time to spread and, therefore, remain contained. Also note that shotguns are short range weapons intended to cover an area but with relatively low velocity, force and power compared to – say – a sniper rifle which would have more penetration.
And wait a minute…You’re suggesting that the police were SO detailed they picked each individual pellet out of Cobain’s head? That would rather go against the idea that the police were sloppy… I personally have never seen any evidence that any count of the number of pellets in Cobain’s head took place.
Viv, there was a ‘large pool of drying blood’ coming from his head according to the SPD police reports. Multiple people saw his body that day.
I’ll just day this right now. It matters how strong the Heroin is/purity. I’m hearing of people dying all around me right now off 15mg of dope. I have been a user for years and there is no fucking way, no matter what’s going on in life, if I just shot some dope suicide will be the FURTHEST thing from my mind. Why wouldn’t you just shoot a lethal dose if you were going to kill yourself? At least before you did it you would be capable of committing suicide. After you’re high your mood is happy and ultra relaxed and you don’t want to kill yourself no matter what’s going on in your life because that is why people shoot Heroin in the first place because it takes all of that away. That’s enough proof right there for me to believe he was murdered I don’t need further evidence. I can tell you that if he was going to kill himself it would have been from a huge dose of Heroin and it would have likely been when he was sober, BEFORE he did any dope. Being high on dope and being sober/dope sick are 2 VERY different mindsets. He may have wanted to kill himself but after he shot that dope I can guarantee you he would have changed his mind…Until about 4 hours later…When he either couldn’t get anymore or decided to shoot himself without doing anymore dope because if he did more he wouldn’t shoot himself.
Why would Courtney save him from numerous overdoses even up to the March Rome incident if she wanted him dead? Why stage an intervention & go to treatment herself instead of just letting him kill himself on heroin? The man was on a death mission. It was a matter of time. Why concoct a complicated shotgun murder that could easily get her locked up for life when she only had to sit back & wait for him to die from an overdose or suicide? In ’94 junkies were scared to shoot up around him; dealers were turning him away. THAT’S how bad he was.
Yeah, he said he wanted a divorce, but immediately after that he tried to romance Courtney & have sex with her, after which she turned him down & he swallowed all those pills in the first suicide attempt. He had no intention of divorce–not after what his parents’ divorce had done to him. He couldn’t do that to his daughter.
When someone with low self-esteem is cheated on or talked down to by a partner, it can make them feel like less than nothing. When he started thinking Courtney was cheating (which she probably was), that was the biggest rejection ever. And then the intervention happened where they literally threatened to break up the band, threatened divorce & taking away Frances, which further made him feel like sh*t. Imagine having your only coping mechanism (dope in this instance) taken away when you’re already at your lowest.
Knowing it wasn’t possible to be all things to all people, he chose death. He thought everyone would be better off without him partly because that’s how they made him feel. He was a cash cow to a lot of people & probably just needed some time away from the spotlight. But their motives were to clean him up in time for Lollapalooza ’94 rather than getting him healthy for the long term.
The bottom line is this: you can’t live with untreated bipolar disorder forever, especially when drugs & stress enter the picture. It’s not called “the cancer of psychiatry” for nothing. The ups & downs will eat you alive. Kurt’s pressures were far beyond what any “normal” person has to think about, and he was too much of an introvert to handle stardom without a numbing agent like heroin. He was not a natural extrovert like Novoselic. Those quiet, contemplative types often fall into drug use to make human interaction easier. Prince is another example of this.
But these die-hard “truthers” who insist on blaming his widow are gross. She indirectly contributed with her infidelity, insensitivity & pressure to make him bring home the $$$, but a hitman she was not.
Yes to all of that, but more. As 15-year-old in 1994, I visited the Madrona Heights house next to Lake Washington. I obsessed for years over Tom Grant’s theories.
At the time, there was very little information reported about Kurt’s mental state from his personal friends. The matter of mental health was virtually unreported in the media, and compared with today’s standards, there was little available to be learned about it, outside of clinical research. I reasoned that Tom Grant’s account was the closest possible examination of what had happened, because no one else who really knew him could bear to confront the matter, and Tom was the only party who made his account very easily accessible. I pretty easily accepted the idea that Kurt was murdered.
These past few years, Kurt’s personal friends have made very personal testaments to Kurt’s suicide simply being a very tragic mistake that he could have survived. Kurt probably even wanted to survive, but he made a serious of huge mistakes in his life’s most difficult period. He could have made the choice to recover. Survivors overwhelmingly do want to recover.
If anyone reading is having a difficult time, reach out and talk to someone you trust.
Courtney offered Eldon Hoke $50,000 to kill Kurt with a shotgun and make it look like a suicide. Hoke admitted it on camera and passed a polygraph. The offer was then passed to Allen Wrench who pulled the trigger and was $50,000 richer (proven) after Kurt’s death. Hoke then implicated Courtney and Wrench on camera, passed a polygraph, received a visit from Wrench and wound up dead on railroad tracks the next day. When Kurt’s body wasn’t found fast enough, Courtney scheduled an electrician to visit the home and install an alarm system above the garage. So not only did she hire Kurt’s killer, she hired the man who discovered his body. There’s as much circumstantial evidence here than any murder case I can think of. Courtney is guilty as hell, but was the recipient of celebrity privilege. Allen Wrench and Courtney are the murderers.
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